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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 03-26-2012, 5:55 PM
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Default 300 Whisper, 7.62x35 (AAC Blackout) or 7.62x40 (Wilson)?

The proliferation of 30 cal 223 derivatives are confounding. First there was the good old 300 Whisper (300-221). And now, in the span of the last two years we saw the 7.62 x 40 Wilson and the 7.62 x 35 ACC. The funny thing is that none of these cartridges use what would appear to me as the optimal case length -- 7.62 x 37.5 -- which will retain the same exact tip to case mouth distance as the 7.62 x 51 cartridge.

In metric terms, these can basically be summarized as:-
  • 7.62 x 34 mm (aka 300 Whisper, 300/221)
  • 7.62 x 35 mm (aka AAC Blackout)
  • 7.62 x 37.5 mm (true wildcat that keeps 7.62x51 bullet depths)
  • 7.62 x 40 mm (aka 7.62 Wilson Combat)

If you have to pick one for an AR15 upper which will you choose and why?
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Old 03-26-2012, 7:12 PM
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.308 is my choice

But of those, I like what Ive seen with blackout. I have an AR pistol and that round seems to work well in short barrels. Plus I dream of having a can to match it
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Old 03-26-2012, 7:33 PM
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.300 Blackout is the only one, as far as I know, that has SAMMI certification. If you roll your own, that may not be a big deal, but in the long run that may be what gives it staying power and popularity over the others.
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Old 03-27-2012, 5:25 PM
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While I agree that there are some advantages to a 37mm long case, the case length of 300 AAC Blackout is the longest it can be and work with existing USGI magazines.

7.62x40mm and 7.62x37mm both require custom magazines. 7.62x40mm has too short of a neck for optimal bullet support, and the case taper was changed to preserve some shoulder, so brass needs fire-forming if you want to make your own.

300/221 is just the pre-SAAMI version of 300 BLK so no reason to use that.

Ammo:

http://www.richiespng.com/product.php?item=136515
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Old 03-27-2012, 6:37 PM
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I would go with the 7.62x40WT. Uses easily available brass (Lake City 5.56), modified PMAGs and Lancer mags.

http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/ar-styl...2x40-wt-rifle/
http://308ar.com/forum/wilson-combat-7-62-x-40-wt/
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Old 03-27-2012, 7:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
7.62x40mm and 7.62x37mm both require custom magazines. 7.62x40mm has too short of a neck for optimal bullet support, and the case taper was changed to preserve some shoulder, so brass needs fire-forming if you want to make your own.
Yup, what he said - though as one of the developers of the cartridge, he may be biased
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Old 03-28-2012, 1:15 PM
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Everyone is jumping on the .300 blackout.It will be around a long time.Lee makes cheap dies,and it uses factory unmodified magazines.Last year when I was looking at the two,there were over 75 vendors selling blackout products.Nobody has WT.It was one of the hottest items at SHOT show.All the major manufactures are chambering barrels for it.Try calling Bushmaster or CMMG and getting a WT barrel.Try getting ammo.It's not the most powerful round you can put in an AR,but just might be the best option for SBR and pistol configurations.Everyone knows about it's supressed capabilities....

Last edited by hawaii five-0; 03-28-2012 at 1:27 PM..
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Old 03-28-2012, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaii five-0 View Post
Everyone knows has read about it's supressed capabilities....
Fixed that for you.

I'm planning on a 10" .300BLK in the future, but a .30cal suppressor will come first, and other things still will come before that.
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Old 03-28-2012, 4:03 PM
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.300 AAC BLACKOUT due to SAAMI specs.

Or 6.5 Grendel (also SAAMI)
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Old 03-28-2012, 5:34 PM
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If you can't get a can or an SBR, whats the point?
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Last edited by ptoguy2002; 03-28-2012 at 5:37 PM..
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  #11  
Old 03-28-2012, 7:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoguy2002 View Post
If you can't get a can or an SBR, whats the point?
Because it's a far more versatile cartridge than that.
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Old 03-28-2012, 8:22 PM
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OK, after reading about it, I stand corrected....
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoguy2002 View Post
If you can't get a can or an SBR, whats the point?
Can or no can, noise or no noise, a 125 grain 30 cal bullet at 2200~2400 fps is a more effective (and more reliable) projectile for putting down 2 legged and 4 legged creatures than the 223 in 55 or 62 grain round at 3000~3200 fps. No, it is not as flat shooting which makes hitting at longer ranges more difficult when you don't know the range and need to compensate for the drop. But at point blank to 200 yards where most of us will use the AR platform rifles/carbines, flat shooting doesn't really matter.

Honestly, I believe that a 7.62 x 37.5mm cartridge pushing a 125 grain FMJ at ~2300 fps is what NATO should have adopted instead of the 5.56. Heckk, for bullet commonality with the 7.62x51, I'll even take a 7.62 x 37.5 loaded with a 147 grain FMJ at 2100 fps. In short, they should have adopted a narrower, higher pressure, straight walled, more magazine efficient version of the 7.62 WP round. The infantry rifle and carbine is going to be used overwhelmingly in street combat where range rarely exceeds 100!200 yards. You want something that is a good man stopper and which gives you the most rounds in the smallest magazine volume. At 300~500 yards where the 556 has an accuracy advantage from its faster and flatter shooting bullet most soldiers can't hit reliably anyway. Those ranges are what the GPMG and the 25mm on the IFV is for. That, or the platoon's sniper marksman with a scoped 308. The ability for this same cartridge to adapt itself to driving a 240 grain sierra match king at 1050 fps for suppressed weapons doesn't hurt either. Speaking of big heavy bullets, you can actually drive a 240 grainer at about 1400 fps if you don't care about the sonic crack. That bullet with its 0.712 ballistic coefficient will still be supersonic (>1125 fps) at 400 yards.

Last edited by dwightlooi; 03-29-2012 at 12:19 AM..
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  #14  
Old 03-29-2012, 6:55 AM
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We are finding that bullets in the 100-125 grain range are best, even though in 308 heavier bullets are better.

This is because bullets which may be for varmints in 308, when at a lower velocity, don't break apart as easily, and end up being medium game bullets in 300 BLK.

300 BLK shots to point blank range (no adjustment of the sights needed) to about 230 yards. Beyond that, you will want to start to compensate.

I have shot it to 600 yards from a 16 inch barrel and hit the 3 inch (1/2 MOA) X-ring.
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Old 03-29-2012, 7:31 AM
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Yup, as I said, I stand corrected.
The thread motivated me to do a little reading.
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Old 03-29-2012, 8:58 PM
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I still never understood why they went with the 35mm case length though. If it were me, I would have kept the same tip-to-casemouth and neck length as the 308. The would have called for a 37.5mm case length. In otherwords, that is the length which allows bullet seatings to be exactly the same as the 308.
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Old 03-29-2012, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightlooi View Post
I still never understood why they went with the 35mm case length though. If it were me, I would have kept the same tip-to-casemouth and neck length as the 308. The would have called for a 37.5mm case length. In otherwords, that is the length which allows bullet seatings to be exactly the same as the 308.
Because then it wouldn't feed reliably from a standard 5.56 AR magazine. You know, the ones most of us already own at least three or four of? More importantly, the ones the US government already owns millions of... Compatability with existing gear = increased marketability when it comes to pursuing government contracts.
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Old 03-29-2012, 9:22 PM
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I'm going to assume you live in CA and i think you're nuts for getting a gun whose main attraction is that it offers a subsonic round for suppressors.

how about a 6.8 SPCII?
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:29 AM
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I'm going to assume you live in CA and i think you're nuts for getting a gun whose main attraction is that it offers a subsonic round for suppressors.
If that's your rationale, then you have a very limited world-view of what this round can do.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:47 PM
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If that's your rationale, then you have a very limited world-view of what this round can do.
I guess i do.

last time i checked there was an already proven round for $5 a box called the 7.62x39 which appears to be very very similar.
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Old 03-30-2012, 1:14 PM
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I'm a 308 fan. That being said, I think the heavier bullet, larger diameter and ballistics of the .300 Blackout are far better than the current 5.56 NATO round. I never understood the rational behind the 5.56 as a combat weapon.
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Old 05-27-2012, 5:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clutchy View Post
I'm going to assume you live in CA and i think you're nuts for getting a gun whose main attraction is that it offers a subsonic round for suppressors.

how about a 6.8 SPCII?
Why does 300 AAC Blackout only make sense with a suppressor? It is simply the most powerful way to shoot 30 cal in an AR15 while keeping normal mags.

It has as much energy from a 16 inch barrel as 5.56mm from a 24 inch barrel. So for someone who wants an upgrade in power, it can do that and still have 30 rounds capacity in a pre-ban magazine. How are those pre-ban 6.8 magazines working out for you?

Also, 300 AAC Blackout ammunition is $10.36 per box:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html

Can't find UMC 6.8 at CTD, but S&B is 69.4% more expensive.
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Old 05-27-2012, 5:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clutchy View Post
I guess i do.

last time i checked there was an already proven round for $5 a box called the 7.62x39 which appears to be very very similar.
It does not work well enough in the AR15. But sure, if you want an AK - 7.62x39 is the way to go.
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Old 05-27-2012, 5:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightlooi View Post
I still never understood why they went with the 35mm case length though. If it were me, I would have kept the same tip-to-casemouth and neck length as the 308. The would have called for a 37.5mm case length. In otherwords, that is the length which allows bullet seatings to be exactly the same as the 308.
35mm is the longest the case can be and be fully compatible with existing magazines. If you want more power, and are ok with giving up full compatibility with normal magazines, then there is 7.62x40mm. Though that has a really short neck (even shorter than 300 WM), and the cases need to be fire-formed, and it has less body taper.
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Old 05-27-2012, 5:53 AM
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I just finished a CQB class yesterday here in Nor-Cal with my just finished 300Blackout. It uses a 16" Wilson combat barrel fitted into an Aero Precision monolithic upper.

I cut and formed all my own brass using range pickups, I use a stainless steel pin tumbler to be sure it's as clean as can be, and used 2 forming dies, a Redding with no expander to get the initial form and trim (Dillion case trimmer on top with a Black Fox Research adapter) and then into the Lee die with neck ball expander to obviously get the neck to the correct dia. And double check the case shape.

I loaded 147g. Military pulled .308 BT with 18 grains of AA1680 at an OAL of 2.150. That is a reccomended starting off point, and the Load X software calculated it at about 1800 fps.

It was awesome , the gun pretty much shot flawless all day, I had a total of 4 failures to cycle out of approx. 350 rounds, which I contribute to 2 things, 1. Brand new rifle that was probably a little light on oil (added more lube), and 2. The "starting point" load. I'll bump it up to about 18.2 - 18.4 (black fox research reccomended 18.6 for ultimate accuracy at 100yds per his testing) and then just creep up to the 18.6.

All said and done, I am loading the 147g rounds for pretty much exactly what I reload 5.56 for, about .18 a round (initial cost of the specialized loading equipment not included in the startup cost). For sub 100yd range, if you are needing to knock down 2 or 4 legged critters, or just steel plates, nothing beats it. The recoil, muzzle flip, and sound levels seem to be about on par with a 5.56, and that is with a cheapy bird cage on it, I have a BattleComp BABC on order for it.

2 other friends of mine are building theirs now, and a 3rd is ordering parts, and I think after yesterday, several people in CQB course are seriously considering building them as well. I was really hoping that this would be a good solid knock down round that was effective, and fun to shoot, and trust me, it is.
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Old 05-27-2012, 7:43 AM
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7.62 x 35 mm (aka AAC Blackout)
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:22 AM
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Thinking of building an .300 AAC, what would be the best barrel length, 16 or 18?
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Old 05-27-2012, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedpower View Post
Thinking of building an .300 AAC, what would be the best barrel length, 16 or 18?
I have heard that you do not want to exceed 16", but I personally don't know why. I believe that it's because it's a low pressure round, so if you are running longer barrels, you can have cycling issues. Regardless, it's really mostly effective to 100-150yds so I don't think an 18" is required.
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Old 05-28-2012, 5:59 AM
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I love my .300 BLKs!





Now I just need to finish my non-lead loads that have been sitting on my reloading bench for a few months and I will take the 16" hunting with me for coyotes or maybe even a pig.

I also have the pistol on my CCW! He he he.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:49 AM
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300 Blackout easily. Cheap, easily reloadable, is actually capable of some precision, compatible with most AR parts, and of course runs excellent with a suppressor.
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