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  #1  
Old 09-17-2008, 4:55 PM
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Default DOJ intra-familial transfer

Had a quick questing regarding the form to submit to DOJ...

My dad is gifting a Glock 22 to me. I'm 20, and it is possible to transfer the handgun to me using this form. I assume I fill out MY information under the "OWNER" section of the form, his name where it says "ACQUIRED FROM" and all the other info... but who signs the form? Me or him? Seems kind of weird he doesn't need to do any action and I just need to submit the form.

I called DOJ today and asked about the HSC requirement...since I have a POST 832 PC Firearms cert I'm exempt from that rule.

Last edited by gentry; 09-17-2008 at 5:59 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2008, 5:16 PM
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You are good to go, fill out the form, pay the $19.. Say you aquired it from your father as a gift. You sign the form.. He really needs to do nothing.

You are exempt from HSC requirements...
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Old 09-17-2008, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leitung View Post
You are good to go, fill out the form, pay the $19.. Say you aquired it from your father as a gift. You sign the form.. He really needs to do nothing.

You are exempt from HSC requirements...
Thanks. Will I get any confirmation that the transfer was successful?
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  #4  
Old 09-17-2008, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gentry View Post
Thanks. Will I get any confirmation that the transfer was successful?
Yes.
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  #5  
Old 09-17-2008, 5:33 PM
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Splitting hairs here, but you mean intrafamilial, right? </anal>
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Old 09-17-2008, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Yes.
Thanks..should have rest the rest of the document!

Quote:
Originally Posted by localguy View Post
Splitting hairs here, but you mean intrafamilial, right? </anal>
Yes
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  #7  
Old 09-17-2008, 8:00 PM
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Your dad is in California, yes?
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  #8  
Old 09-18-2008, 2:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brooke View Post
Your dad is in California, yes?
Great question! I was in a gunshop here in SoCal this week and that question came up. I had told them that my son who lives in WI could get off roster guns for me by gifting them to me but by the time I would pay the shipping from the seller to my son's FFL and his transfer fee, then pay the shipping to my FFL and his transfer fee the cost would make the transaction fiscally unviable. Of course if the weapon was off list and was near impossible to get here in the PRK it may be that's exactly what I would have to do. It was at this point that the shop guys stated that if he brought the gun with him while visiting me out here that we could just do the intra-familial paperwork and skip the CA FFL. So my question after this long winded statement is; Can my visiting son who lives out of state bring an off list, non-AW gun with legal mag that he wants to gift to me and while he's here in CA file the intra-familial paperwork to transfer the gun to me and then return home to the midwest legally?
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  #9  
Old 09-18-2008, 2:25 PM
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I could be wrong here, but I thought you had to be 21 to own a handgun. Is there an exemption for a family transfer?
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Old 09-18-2008, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thatsteveguy View Post
Can my visiting son who lives out of state bring an off list, non-AW gun with legal mag that he wants to gift to me and while he's here in CA file the intra-familial paperwork to transfer the gun to me and then return home to the midwest legally?
No. It is illegal for residents of two different states to transfer a firearm without an FFL's involvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by missiondude View Post
I could be wrong here, but I thought you had to be 21 to own a handgun. Is there an exemption for a family transfer?
You need to be 18 to OWN a handgun. You need to be 21 to BUY a handgun. The intrafamilial transfer is an exemption to the wait-till-21 rule.
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  #11  
Old 09-18-2008, 2:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missiondude View Post
I could be wrong here, but I thought you had to be 21 to own a handgun. Is there an exemption for a family transfer?
21 to PURCHASE a handgun, 18 to own. Family transfer is not a purchase.
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  #12  
Old 09-18-2008, 2:36 PM
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Originally Posted by leelaw View Post
No. It is illegal for residents of two different states to transfer a firearm without an FFL's involvement.
Thanks, that's what I thought too! It's why I ALWAYS take gunshop advice with a grain of salt!
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  #13  
Old 09-18-2008, 3:19 PM
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Amazing how much info you could get in this forum.
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  #14  
Old 09-18-2008, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatsteveguy View Post
Great question! I was in a gunshop here in SoCal this week and that question came up. I had told them that my son who lives in WI could get off roster guns for me by gifting them to me but by the time I would pay the shipping from the seller to my son's FFL and his transfer fee, then pay the shipping to my FFL and his transfer fee the cost would make the transaction fiscally unviable. Of course if the weapon was off list and was near impossible to get here in the PRK it may be that's exactly what I would have to do. It was at this point that the shop guys stated that if he brought the gun with him while visiting me out here that we could just do the intra-familial paperwork and skip the CA FFL. So my question after this long winded statement is; Can my visiting son who lives out of state bring an off list, non-AW gun with legal mag that he wants to gift to me and while he's here in CA file the intra-familial paperwork to transfer the gun to me and then return home to the midwest legally?
No, no, no.... He can bring it with him, and transfer it to you through a CA FFL.. Thats the only way it can be legally done.. he cannot ship an off list handgun to your FFL either, he must bring it with him into california, and do the transaction at a CA FFL.
Mind you the mag cap rule still applies, make sure he doesn't bring any high caps with him into the state, doing so would mean he is comitting a felony.

The intra-familial deal only works if you are both California residents, which one of you is not..
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  #15  
Old 09-18-2008, 6:59 PM
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I went through the late last year process and it was pretty simple. Fill out the paper work, include a check, and mail it. They even called me to confirm who the family member was -- my father. You do get a letter in the mail a few months later confirming the same.
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  #16  
Old 09-18-2008, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leitung View Post
No, no, no.... He can bring it with him, and transfer it to you through a CA FFL.. Thats the only way it can be legally done.. he cannot ship an off list handgun to your FFL either, he must bring it with him into california, and do the transaction at a CA FFL.
Mind you the mag cap rule still applies, make sure he doesn't bring any high caps with him into the state, doing so would mean he is comitting a felony.

The intra-familial deal only works if you are both California residents, which one of you is not..
What kind of transfer would it be then? A Private Party Transfer??
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  #17  
Old 09-18-2008, 7:20 PM
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Leitung, the direct relation in another state can indeed send an off-roster gift handgun to a Californian from his remote FFL to the Californian's FFL. In recording the transaction, the Calfornia FFL notes a "Family gift" exemption to the roster rule. As long as there's no other problem with the handgun(high cap mag, AW features, ...), it's provided for. The California FFL will want the gift-giver to include a signed, dated memorandum to the effect that it's a gift from the dad/mom to the son/daughter, or vv.
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  #18  
Old 09-18-2008, 8:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leitung View Post
No, no, no.... He can bring it with him, and transfer it to you through a CA FFL.. Thats the only way it can be legally done.. he cannot ship an off list handgun to your FFL either, he must bring it with him into california, and do the transaction at a CA FFL.

The intra-familial deal only works if you are both California residents, which one of you is not..
You are wrong. Stop dispensing FUD.

Intrafamilial transfer is an exception to the roster. When the gun is coming from out of state, the FFl can charge whatever he wants, but can receive the off-list handgun and checks the intrafamilial box for exception to the roster.
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  #19  
Old 09-18-2008, 8:15 PM
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So most of these intra-familial transfers are for father to son, son to father, could they be done from a sister to brother, brother to sister, kind of way? And if so, what form is needed, and where would I find it?
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  #20  
Old 09-18-2008, 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
So most of these intra-familial transfers are for father to son, son to father, could they be done from a sister to brother, brother to sister, kind of way? And if so, what form is needed, and where would I find it?
If I recall correctly, they are strictly parent to child (or child to parent)...I'll look it up.
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  #21  
Old 09-18-2008, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
If I recall correctly, they are strictly parent to child (or child to parent)...I'll look it up.
Patriot is correct. As a meatphor, the transfer may move directly up and down the family tree trunk, but not across branches.
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  #22  
Old 09-18-2008, 8:33 PM
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It looks as though grandparent to grandchild is kosher as well:

Quote:
(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means
any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#20

Quote:
"Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285, subdivision (b). (PC section 12076(c)) "
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  #23  
Old 09-18-2008, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ohsmily View Post
You are wrong. Stop dispensing FUD.

Intrafamilial transfer is an exception to the roster. When the gun is coming from out of state, the FFl can charge whatever he wants, but can receive the off-list handgun and checks the intrafamilial box for exception to the roster.
My bad.. I must have gotten some FUD then.. I didn't know you could do that..
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  #24  
Old 09-18-2008, 10:03 PM
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Okay, lets see if I have it now, assuming that the handgun gift has the correct mag capacity and can't be classified as AW;
1. Intra-familial transfers are always up/down the immediate family tree, never sideways.
2. If son/daughter or grandfather/grandmother moves to CA from out of state and brings an off roster gun, they can give it to me with an intra-familial-transfer thru DOJ and no FFL is required.
3. If son/daughter or grandfather/grandmother are CA non-residents they can send me an off roster gun as a gift, but the gun must go thru a CA FFL.
4. If son/daughter or grandfather/grandmother are CA non-residents and bring an off roster gun with them while visiting me, they can gift it to me BUT it must go thru a CA FFL.

Am I correct?
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  #25  
Old 09-18-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by thatsteveguy View Post
Am I correct?
Yep, you got it. You can get a handgun this way from your grandson, granddaughter, son, daughter, father, mother, grandfather or grandmother.

You might find that your local FFL doesn't know how to process a gift transfer from out of state to get the roster exemption. You should go over it with them first to make sure they understand everything.
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  #26  
Old 09-19-2008, 11:09 AM
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If son/daughter or grandfather/grandmother are CA non-residents they can send me an off roster gun as a gift, but the gun must go thru a CA FFL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amendment II View Post
Yep, you got it. You can get a handgun this way from your grandson, granddaughter, son, daughter, father, mother, grandfather or grandmother.

You might find that your local FFL doesn't know how to process a gift transfer from out of state to get the roster exemption. You should go over it with them first to make sure they understand everything.
What is the correct procedure for the above situation so that I can talk to my FFL? I don't think he does know. TIA
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Old 09-19-2008, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Poltergeist View Post
What is the correct procedure for the above situation so that I can talk to my FFL? I don't think he does know. TIA
1) Your out of state family member ships the handgun to your local FFL.

2) The family member includes a signed letter in the box that says they are giving you the handgun as a gift. The letter should include a description of the handgun.

3) When your local FFL DROS's the handgun to you he needs to enter a roster exemption into the DROS computer. I'm not sure exactly how this is done, but I think there might be a drop down menu in that field on the DROS screen, with one of the exemptions being something like "intra-family gift".

It would be great if one of the Dealers here on Calguns could post the exact wording of the exemption and where to enter it on the DROS computer so that interested parties could tell their local Dealers how to do it.
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Old 09-27-2008, 6:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missiondude View Post
I could be wrong here, but I thought you had to be 21 to own a handgun. Is there an exemption for a family transfer?
21 to "purchase"
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  #29  
Old 09-30-2008, 9:56 PM
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I want to resurrect this thread. I've got a question...

This is my situation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatsteveguy View Post
4. If son/daughter or grandfather/grandmother are CA non-residents and bring an off roster gun with them while visiting me, they can gift it to me BUT it must go thru a CA FFL.
I've got a SIG that was originally purchased by my mother in AZ. She now lives in CO. I and the SIG are now both in CA.

I read the DoJ's FAQs (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php). #25 says:

"Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?
Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction."

This says nothing regarding whether both reside in the same state. The form itself wants my information (CA DL#), but asks nothing more than the name of the person from whom I'm receiving the gun (or where it was originally purchased).

So, I'm about to submit the "Report of Operation... " form and a $19 check, but this makes me think that I do NOT need to do a PPT at a FFL. Right?

Please advise,

Ben
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bimmer2 View Post
So, I'm about to submit the "Report of Operation... " form and a $19 check, but this makes me think that I do NOT need to do a PPT at a FFL. Right?
Federal law requires a firearm being transfered by residents of two different states to be conducted by a FFL dealer in the recipiant's state.

You can fill out the form and send it in and CA DOJ will be okay with it.
However, the BATFE may have words with you and your mom.

There is no Federal gift exemption for transfering firearms between residents of different states.


Also, since your mom is a non-resident of CA, the transfer is not a PPT. It's an out-of-state transfer.
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Last edited by Quiet; 09-30-2008 at 10:23 PM..
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  #31  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post

You can fill out the form and send it in and CA DOJ will be okay with it.
However, the BATFE may have words with you and your mom.
I'm just curious, but how is the BATFE going to know? Does the CA DoJ report this kind of thing to them?

There's NOTHING on the form about my mother except her name. Given that most states normally allow people to bring guns with them when they move, isn't it likely that everybody would assume that whomever I got the gun from is in California?

More to follow,

Ben
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentry View Post
I called DOJ today and asked about the HSC requirement...since I have a POST 832 PC Firearms cert I'm exempt from that rule.
Another dumb question...

I've got three pistols, and I don't have an HSC. Do I really need one?

The form that I'm sending to the DOJ to report that my mother has given me her SIG doesn't ask if I have an HSC.
Will they simply assume that I do? Is there some way that they check? Is there some kind of central registry? Or are they going to kick this back at me if I don't also submit some kind of evidence that I have a HSC, even though they didn't ask for it?

I'm about to apply for a CCW, which will make me exempt from the HSC requirement (and I don't plan to buy any more handguns any time soon, anyway). If at all possible, I want to avoid having to get an HSC...

Ben
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer2 View Post
Another dumb question...

I've got three pistols, and I don't have an HSC. Do I really need one?

The form that I'm sending to the DOJ to report that my mother has given me her SIG doesn't ask if I have an HSC.
Will they simply assume that I do? Is there some way that they check? Is there some kind of central registry? Or are they going to kick this back at me if I don't also submit some kind of evidence that I have a HSC, even though they didn't ask for it?

I'm about to apply for a CCW, which will make me exempt from the HSC requirement (and I don't plan to buy any more handguns any time soon, anyway). If at all possible, I want to avoid having to get an HSC...

Ben
Is the $25 for the HSC such a problem? Granted, the whole HSC idea is useless, but why so adamant?

There's no request for one's HSC number on the intrafamilial transfer form, so I don't know how the DOJ would check. Still, it's the Right Thing To Do.

As to out of state transfers, Calguns members always recommend following the law - which in this case requires an out of state transfer through a California FFL for CA residents, but it can be the 'gift from immediate family member' version.

Still requires 10-day wait, handling demonstration, whatever fee the FFL wants.

And BATFE thinks avoiding the FFL is a $5000 fine and/or prison in the Federal Penitentiary.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=114142
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  #34  
Old 10-01-2008, 9:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Is the $25 for the HSC such a problem? Granted, the whole HSC idea is useless, but why so adamant?
No, it's not such a big deal, but it's another hassle, and another $25. I'm trying to do this with as few hoops and as little outlay as possible.

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There's no request for one's HSC number on the intrafamilial transfer form, so I don't know how the DOJ would check. Still, it's the Right Thing To Do.
Let's not confuse "legal" and "right."

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As to out of state transfers, Calguns members always recommend following the law - which in this case requires an out of state transfer through a California FFL for CA residents, but it can be the 'gift from immediate family member' version.

Still requires 10-day wait, handling demonstration, whatever fee the FFL wants.

And BATFE thinks avoiding the FFL is a $5000 fine and/or prison in the Federal Penitentiary.
]
OK, I've re-thought this. I had thought reporting that my mother had just gifted me this gun would be easier than reporting that I've just brought the gun into the state, but this is turning into a real PITA.

My mother and both used to live in AZ, and I took possession of the gun immediately after she bought it — a paperwork-free transfer of ownership, right? So, really there was NO interstate transfer, and I don't need to deal with an FFL and a DROS. Does this work?

So, now I think I can shred the "Intrafamilial" report, and I'm simply going to add the SIG to the "New Resident" report that I already need to submit.

Please advise,

Ben

Last edited by Bimmer2; 10-01-2008 at 9:56 AM.. Reason: Fixed quoting format...
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Bimmer2 View Post
My mother and both used to live in AZ, and I took possession of the gun immediately after she bought it — a paperwork-free transfer of ownership, right? So, really there was NO interstate transfer, and I don't need to deal with an FFL and a DROS. Does this work?

So, now I think I can shred the "Intrafamilial" report, and I'm simply going to add the SIG to the "New Resident" report that I already need to submit.

Please advise,

Ben
If you took possession of it legally in AZ, and moved here with it, then filing the 'personal handgun importer' form covers it.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:52 AM
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Just to be clear.
An interfamilial transfer whether interstate or intrastate does not have to be a gift to be exempt from the roster. The relvevant code section reads:

12078
(c)
(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun by gift,
bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to
another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family.

(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate
succession, or other means
by one individual to another if both
individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the
following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30
days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or
deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that
includes information concerning the individual taking possession of
the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description
of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals
complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the
Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a
handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

So your parent, grandparent, child, grandchild etc. who live out of state could sell you a handgun that is not on the roster and it would be exempt by the same section that exempts gifts.
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Yeah! Let's put someone in who will appoint SCOTUS Justices that will gut Heller, that will show Bush, the Republicans and all those people who didn't see the glory that is Ron Paul!!

Working on the same theory, next time someone tries to mug you or beat you up, stab yourself in the scrotum first, that should keep them away...

Last edited by Wizard99; 10-01-2008 at 3:16 PM.. Reason: Quoted wrong PC
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Old 10-01-2008, 2:53 PM
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Thanks, Librarian!

Yes, as far as I can tell, it took possession of it legally while I still lived in Arizona with my parents (early 1990s), and that "transfer" produced no paperwork because it was intrafamilial and we were both AZ residents.

This is a big help. Once again, it's CalGuns to the rescue,

Ben
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Old 10-02-2008, 8:02 AM
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what if you don't pass the process i know they do i background check and if you fail? what do they say cause techinicaly you take the guns then send in the form and if you fail do they send a letter saying give up the guns or give them back or what? i always wondered how that would go donw.
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Old 10-02-2008, 8:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark45 View Post
what if you don't pass the process i know they do i background check and if you fail? what do they say cause techinicaly you take the guns then send in the form and if you fail do they send a letter saying give up the guns or give them back or what? i always wondered how that would go donw.
This is off-topic, but yes, if you initiate a CCW and you can't legally own guns, then the DoJ is supposed do something about taking your guns away.

FWIW, there's a procedure whereby you can pay $20 and check to see if you have any legal problems. I'm confident enough that I don't that I'm just going to submit my application.

Or are you talking about the HSC? I don't think that there's any way that whether or not one has an HSC can be determined by a background check. As far as I can tell, the HSC-requirement is totally unenforceable... gun control by honor system?

Ben
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer2 View Post
This is off-topic, but yes, if you initiate a CCW and you can't legally own guns, then the DoJ is supposed do something about taking your guns away.

FWIW, there's a procedure whereby you can pay $20 and check to see if you have any legal problems. I'm confident enough that I don't that I'm just going to submit my application.
(I think you mean 'transfer' for 'CCW' above.)

It's possible that some flag might be raised if one fails a background check. For a first gun, there will be no other guns to 'take away', but it is a crime to attempt to purchase a gun if you're a prohibited person -- thus the existence of the Personal Firearms Eligibility Check Application so one can find out without the risk. If you had an adventuresome career prior to wanting to buy a gun, maybe you might want to do that. If you've never been arrested, you're likely in the clear.

On the other hand, if you had passed the checks before, and you failed now you know either the failure is a mistake, and you need to call DOJ, or the failure is for a valid reason -- and it's pretty hard to miss a felony conviction, an involuntary commitment to a mental institution, or a situation where one might be subject to a restraining order. For those situations, DOJ is trying to match the names against their database and are, in fact, executing enforcement actions; there was an article in the paper and an amusing thread on it here earlier this year.
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