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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 08-16-2009, 8:52 AM
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Default FN-2000 ?'s

I want to get a FN-2000. What are my options for making one Cali legal?

Thanks

Tenbrook

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_F2000

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  #2  
Old 08-16-2009, 9:01 AM
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probably make it longer with an OAL of atleast 30" and a magazine lock of some sort?
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Old 08-16-2009, 9:18 AM
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Lock the lower magazine release, cover the side magazine release to make it accessible with a tool only, extend the OAL by adding to the stock or placing a shroud over the barrel or replacing the FS with a longer one (original FS is pinned so getting it off is a PITA, but threads are same as a metric FAL, so a long FAL FS will work). And use 10rnd mags.

CWS and LanWorld offer kits and services.

Last edited by dachan; 08-16-2009 at 9:46 AM..
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  #4  
Old 08-16-2009, 9:24 AM
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If you get it I can make a featureless kydex wrap for it. Im in the bay area also and than you could use your hicaps.
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Old 08-16-2009, 9:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duraglock View Post
If you get it I can make a featureless kydex wrap for it. Im in the bay area also and than you could use your hicaps.
What else would need to be done if I filled in the PG? Nothing?
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  #6  
Old 08-16-2009, 9:41 AM
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Here's a huge thread on how to go about doing it; the search function is your friend.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=132548
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Old 08-16-2009, 9:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tenbrook View Post
What else would need to be done if I filled in the PG? Nothing?
still needs to meet length requirement and any other evil features removed.

The benefit of going featureless is to have a detachable mag and using prebans if you own them
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Old 08-16-2009, 9:43 AM
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That's right, fill in the holes (front hole may not be necessary, depends on if it's considered a forward grip) and it becomes featureless, allowing detachable hi-cap mags. Still needs to be >30inches OAL though.


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If you get it I can make a featureless kydex wrap for it. Im in the bay area also and than you could use your hicaps.
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  #9  
Old 08-16-2009, 10:00 AM
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Lan World Inc (lanworldinc.com) has a CA modified version, and I think Cold War Shooters (coldwarshooters.net) does also. CWS doesn't put it on their website though, so you'll have to call or email them for info.

They are the only two I'm aware of that seem to have interest in CA legal FNH weapons.
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  #10  
Old 08-16-2009, 3:31 PM
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Remove the gas-piston and make it a straight pull bolt-action rifle.
As a manually operated centerfire rifle, it can have all the "evil" features and it meets the OAL requirement in it's stock form.

Previous thread on this.

Video of it in action.
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Last edited by Quiet; 08-16-2009 at 3:44 PM..
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  #11  
Old 08-17-2009, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Remove the gas-piston and make it a straight pull bolt-action rifle.
As a manually operated centerfire rifle, it can have all the "evil" features and it meets the OAL requirement in it's stock form.

Previous thread on this.
I never read the linked thread until now, but I'd be a bit cautious of creating a "broken" AW. Modifying a semi-auto through the addition of parts in order to navigate the AW definition legally is one thing, but removing a part to make it a single shot is akin to inducing a malfunction. The gun is not working as intended, designed or redesigned. Or so it would be argued.

Does the gas regulator on the FS2000 has a grenade or "closed" position? This would help in avoiding such a situation. Most FN rifles have not had a fully closed position on the gas plug since the FAL, but not sure about the FS2000.

Anyway...
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  #12  
Old 08-17-2009, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
I never read the linked thread until now, but I'd be a bit cautious of creating a "broken" AW. Modifying a semi-auto through the addition of parts in order to navigate the AW definition legally is one thing, but removing a part to make it a single shot is akin to inducing a malfunction. The gun is not working as intended, designed or redesigned. Or so it would be argued.
How would that legal argument be constructed?

-- Michael
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Old 08-17-2009, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
How would that legal argument be constructed?

-- Michael
A broken or malfunctioning firearm can still be an AW. It need not be actually working. To what degree is another matter, but removing a single, vital part is not going to prevent a prosecutor from taking a swing.

Disassemble the gun, fine, you're protected by the lack of Constructive Possession language in the definition. Add a bullet button or mag lock, that's definitively redesigned into compliance. Removal of the offending features is yet another positive option. But mere removal of a single, vital part is likely not going to establish that the firearm was redesigned or modified to be compliant. Or even attempted.

I'm not debating that removal of the gas piston renders it a single shot, I'm debating the viable explanation to LE and, ultimately, a jury. Removing the gas piston is also done to clean it, so the more "reasonable" argument would be that you were caught with an AW while cleaning or repairing it or while it was malfunctioning. This is troublesome.

This hypothetical case looks even worse when the prosecutor establishes that there are products available to modify the gun into a compliant form, but you did not use them.

A regulator that could be turned entirely OFF would add another layer of credibility to this idea, I just don't know the FS2000 that well.

This is all hypothetical of course, but this idea of removing the gas piston to achieve compliance is very thin, legally speaking.
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  #14  
Old 08-17-2009, 5:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
A broken or malfunctioning firearm can still be an AW. It need not be actually working.
True, but that doesn't necessarily apply here: an intentional act has changed the nature of the firearm. The rifle, sans piston, is not semi-automatic.

If I replace the gas tube on an offlist AR with a solid rod, would you consider this to be an AW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
Disassemble the gun, fine, you're protected by the lack of Constructive Possession language in the definition. Add a bullet button or mag lock, that's definitively redesigned into compliance. Removal of the offending features is yet another positive option. But mere removal of a single, vital part is likely not going to establish that the firearm was redesigned or modified to be compliant. Or even attempted.
Where in the law does it address redesigning or modifying firearms to be compliant?

12276 says "these are the characteristics of an AW". Either a rifle is an AW or it isn't.

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Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
I'm not debating that removal of the gas piston renders it a single shot, I'm debating the viable explanation to LE and, ultimately, a jury. Removing the gas piston is also done to clean it, so the more "reasonable" argument would be that you were caught with an AW while cleaning or repairing it or while it was malfunctioning. This is troublesome.
Not really. A similar argument would state that a non-compliant FS2000 broken into two is also an AW, since you might have just taken it apart for cleaning. We're back at constructive possession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
This hypothetical case looks even worse when the prosecutor establishes that there are products available to modify the gun into a compliant form, but you did not use them.
Hypotheticals don't matter - the question is: was the law broken?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
This is all hypothetical of course, but this idea of removing the gas piston to achieve compliance is very thin, legally speaking.
I think that the best argument against pulling the piston on an FS2000 is the first level LEO interaction: hand a piston-less rifle and a complete rifle to the average LEO, and they probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. There are no overt, obvious outward signs of compliance and the technical nuance may be lost on a non-gun aware officer.

An officer could "reasonably" articulate a reason for an arrest for a piston-less FS2000. The gun owner would prevail, but it wouldn't be fun or cheap.

I'm risk averse enough that I personally wouldn't own and operate such a rifle, but everyone's MMV.

-- Michael
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  #15  
Old 08-17-2009, 6:19 PM
TangoCharlie TangoCharlie is offline
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Michael,

Your points are well made, but reducing it to simply being against the law or not, an AW or not, is extremely simplistic and is the very nature of such a prosecution.

What was the nature of the intentional act? Cleaning or was "AW compliance" simply the on-the-spot explanation made to the arresting officer? You can see how interpretational this becomes upon examination. The Prosecuter thinks its an AW, while the defendant doesn't, so the Prosecutor thinks a law has been broken, while the defendant doesn't. These are the points argued at trial, at which point the action of removing a gas piston as an intentional act of compliance becomes wholly inadequate and unbelievably regrettable.

The difference here is that intent, while not being a function of the Dangerous Weapons Control Law in defining an AW, plays heavily in a prosecution as well as the decision to prosecute. Showing clearly that one intended to comply with the law here is the difference between a warning and a felony conviction.

This scenario is simply way too easily explained by the more reasonable scenario that they were cleaning/repairing an AW or simply had a broken/malfunctioning AW at the time of discovery.
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  #16  
Old 08-17-2009, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
The difference here is that intent, while not being a function of the Dangerous Weapons Control Law in defining an AW, plays heavily in a prosecution as well as the decision to prosecute. Showing clearly that one intended to comply with the law here is the difference between a warning and a felony conviction.
If I have a rifle that does not fall under 12276 rules for an AW, and there is no constructive possession, what is there to prosecute? It would seem to be an easy point to make by any defense attorney.

-- Michael
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